tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2606399196932045640.post1893918466068887422..comments2024-01-25T09:26:15.915-05:00Comments on Dixie Yid: Novel Solution to Coalition's Legal Problems with Criminal Sanctions for Yeshiva "Draft Dodgers"DixieYid (يهودي جنوبي)http://www.blogger.com/profile/03713423988723533390noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2606399196932045640.post-77269453175656253602013-08-08T08:44:43.902-04:002013-08-08T08:44:43.902-04:00Akiva, thank you so much for all of the statistica...Akiva, thank you so much for all of the statistical information. I agree 100% with the demographic/economic arguments.<br /><br />Check my post again though for the context. It is a proposal for a specific prat of a larger resolution which would have to be hammered out by the parties to open the door for a way around the legal obstacles to the coalition's original idea of not having criminal sanctions for "draft dodging bochurim." Even in any consensual resolution by the main parties, there will still be some who will refuse to participate in any non-yeshiva program. The idea allows the parties to avoid the inevitable social war that would result from jailing guys for staying in yeshiva.<br /><br />Shas and UTJ MKs said last Thursday they would be open drafting boys that aren't really learning yomam v'layla. If the parties ever came to an agreement to even draft 20 or 30% of chareidi boys turing 21 each year into chareidi units, that's something I could see the government possibly agreeing to. It, along with the other chareidi employment initiatives and ability for chareidim to work, would go a long way toward making progress on the long-term problems we both agree need to be addressed.DixieYid (يهودي جنوبي)https://www.blogger.com/profile/03713423988723533390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2606399196932045640.post-42252717374815579122013-08-08T07:08:14.876-04:002013-08-08T07:08:14.876-04:00The Israeli Central Statistics reports that of the...The Israeli Central Statistics reports that of the 182,000 students entering the school system from 2013-2019, forty thousand (40,000) will be from the Arab sector and 63,000 from the chareidi sector.<br /><br />The CBS reports that in 2019 only 40.7% of the nation’s students will be enrolled in a non-religious public school while 26.2% will be in an Arab sector school, 18.8% in a chareidi school and 14.3% in a religious public school (this may also be charedi - the Chabad schools are religious public schools, but are funded through the public system with required curriculum elements like Math and Science). In the coming six years, only 79,000 new students will enter the state public schools, compromising a mere 43.4% of all of the new students entering schools nationwide. The total number of students is expected to reach a record-breaking 1.744 million as compared to 1.565 million in 2012, an 11.7% increase.Akivahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13042484533217272945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2606399196932045640.post-84214818727297711772013-08-08T06:58:13.352-04:002013-08-08T06:58:13.352-04:00There's a variety of social trends going on he...There's a variety of social trends going on here. First, what's the driver for this whole business? While our conspiracy minded friends above would love to just scream "they're out to get us, destroy Torah and drag us out of the beis medrash", that's NOT what started this drive.<br /><br />The simple fact is charedi demographics, kein yirbu, are causing a massive increasing socio-economic impact and army manpower impact. (Example - 55% of first graders in Jerusalem are charedi.) Will the army and society be able to function when 1 in 3 exempts from the army, and that same 1 in 3 is receiving government funded learning benefits + government funded poverty benefits? Will the Israeli economy / companies / industry be able to operate when 1 in 3 bow out or don't have the basic skills to be employed at the level the industries and economy requires?<br /><br />Let me put it an easier way to understand for those in the US: How's the local ultra-orthodox school system doing? How many attendees families are paying full tuition? Or even 75% Why aren't they? At what point are not enough students paying enough tuition for the school to fail? (This is not hypothetical, in the past 5 years, 4 schools went bankrupt in Lakewood, 1 in Toronto, 2 in Montreal, etc etc etc.) <br /><br />Now indeed, in the midst of trying to make social changes to move the trend enough to SURVIVE without the need for daily miracles (we're somewhat mandated not to expect daily miracles), a number of nasty secularists are taking the opportunity to do hurtful things to the religious sector - and in many cases ultimately making the goals to be reached harder. But Israeli charedi society is used to not giving an inch - and has not cooperated to make any systemic adjustments.<br /><br />So while DixieYid's idea is inventive, it misses the goal of the whole drive on the government's side - which is to increase labor participation and push it up to a higher-level-job point and set the pattern to fulfill future army manpower requirements - which is literally a matter of life and death in Israel.<br /><br />Of course, the secularists don't want to give up their army indoctrination programs, or their zionist education programs in school either - the idiots.<br /><br />The simple point is, having the WHOLE community learning is no longer viable given the successful growth blessings, the economics of the situation and the dangerous neighborhood. To survive and not be poverty ridden, we must get up to a 60-70% participation rate.<br /><br />Not assimilation (G-d forbid), not indoctrination, not even mixing. Just participation. <br /><br /><br /><br />Akivahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13042484533217272945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2606399196932045640.post-62056793952018938862013-08-05T13:48:57.350-04:002013-08-05T13:48:57.350-04:00Yaakov,
Appreciate the thoughts. And I am accepti...Yaakov,<br /><br />Appreciate the thoughts. And I am accepting nominations.<br /><br />But seriously, I think this is only going to get progressively worse until there is some sort of framework for actual dialogue. And once that starts happening, I think everyone involved will have to get very creative to come up with solutions everyone can live with that will address each side's legitimate concerns. <br /><br />I do believe that any intrangency on the part of the coalition on this issue is ultimately a type of "acting out" that results from frustration, fear and a feeling of vulnerability. The way forward has to involve both sides talking to each other and listening to each other. <br /><br />I believe that if some path can come about that's condusive to a real conversation, that people can come up with a solution. My idea is just a potential part of it that puts forward a feasible way to solve one part of the issue as part of a more comprehensive agreement. DixieYid (يهودي جنوبي)https://www.blogger.com/profile/03713423988723533390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2606399196932045640.post-66160092901933971592013-08-05T13:32:07.539-04:002013-08-05T13:32:07.539-04:00DixieYid,
I applaud your efforts, but I'm af...DixieYid, <br /><br />I applaud your efforts, but I'm afraid I share Josef's pessimism here. Lapid and company have entrenched themselves into the idea of getting everyone (besides the 1800) away from Torah learning.<br /><br />That said, if you can pull it off and get them to agree to this, you should receive a Nobel Peace Prize.yaakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08179304707239865515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2606399196932045640.post-63674534058711866352013-08-05T11:44:19.480-04:002013-08-05T11:44:19.480-04:00A little mussar primarily to myself. Elul is almos...A little mussar primarily to myself. Elul is almost here. Let's stop following and commenting on facebook, twitter, being obsessed with posting pictures of our family vacations, etc. and any other thoughts on the web which in the big picture are just not really important or a good use of our time. Let's learn more Torah and spend less time on the web.<br /><br />Kesiva VaChasima Tova to all. Josefnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2606399196932045640.post-3884355631166629342013-08-05T11:34:19.845-04:002013-08-05T11:34:19.845-04:00Like I said, maybe Rav Weinberger can act on what ...Like I said, maybe Rav Weinberger can act on what he has said in that shiur. <br /><br />You and I or any other blog commentor don't have any influence really and it's not so productive.Josefnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2606399196932045640.post-39839581905494104922013-08-05T11:30:12.264-04:002013-08-05T11:30:12.264-04:00No need to worry. You haven't taken the wind o...No need to worry. You haven't taken the wind out of my sails. <br /><br />But I do believe you're wrong in your assessment. I'm away of the various people's positions at various points but you're making a mistake to think that everyone is an idealogue who just wants to see boys out of the beis medrash. <br /><br />To better understand the situation and see a way out of if, you have to lift up your perspective so you're not so mired in the details that you don't see what's happening. Almost nothing in the politcal arena is written in stone and many things that various poeple have said, proposed, or advocated are not necessary permenant positions. And many positions and statements on all sides of the issue are actually the result of people "acting out" becaue of frustration, feeling threatened, and attaced. <br /><br />For some additional perspective on that, listen to what Rav Weinberger says in this shiur: http://www.ravmosheweinberger.com/Product/Lecture_Series/Rav_Kook/Oros_HaTorah/Oros_HaTorah_(141)_Derech_Eretz_-_A_Peaceful_Solution_RKOH014120130614.htmlDixieYid (يهودي جنوبي)https://www.blogger.com/profile/03713423988723533390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2606399196932045640.post-60559959506888706702013-08-05T11:21:57.397-04:002013-08-05T11:21:57.397-04:00I'm sorry to take the wind out of your sails. ...I'm sorry to take the wind out of your sails. You have clearly spent a lot of time thinking and writing about this. You care about Klal Yisrael and hate machlokes, as do I. <br /><br />But I don't think anything really practical comes out from all of this. Josefnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2606399196932045640.post-16351930406494740322013-08-05T11:00:26.608-04:002013-08-05T11:00:26.608-04:00I said, nice idea. But it's a dream. The Lapid...I said, nice idea. But it's a dream. The Lapid side will never agree to this particular idea. Like you have said, I wish there was someone who could bring the sides together. Maybe someone like Rav Weinberger could. If he went to EY, went to see Rav Grossman, and then together met with Rav Shteinman and Lapid maybe he could have an impact.Josefnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2606399196932045640.post-63747603299594986652013-08-05T10:56:14.249-04:002013-08-05T10:56:14.249-04:00Sorry, you're right. We should just throw in t...Sorry, you're right. We should just throw in the towel and get a divorce.DixieYid (يهودي جنوبي)https://www.blogger.com/profile/03713423988723533390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2606399196932045640.post-1272020296345308002013-08-05T10:53:07.092-04:002013-08-05T10:53:07.092-04:00Whether financial or criminal, the def., clear, op...Whether financial or criminal, the def., clear, openly stated goal of Lapid and Lipman has always been to get charedim to change and as they put it 'be part of normative Israeli society' and with theit share the burden slogan, they have never viewed Torah learning as service Lipman said openly he wanted less than 400 to get an exemption and the 1800 was Naftali Benett's idea if you look back at the news from March you will see that Josefnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2606399196932045640.post-8732344248309230852013-08-05T10:46:40.365-04:002013-08-05T10:46:40.365-04:00I disagree. If you recall, the original coalition ...I disagree. If you recall, the original coalition agreement was for financial penalties for those who dodged the draft, not criminal sanctions. That provision was only added after the Peri committee where (presumably) the legal issue caused that to be put in later on. This was not always part of the proposal.DixieYid (يهودي جنوبي)https://www.blogger.com/profile/03713423988723533390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2606399196932045640.post-63497908614226170322013-08-05T10:40:56.868-04:002013-08-05T10:40:56.868-04:00Nice idea. Keep dreaming. The gov't and Lapi...Nice idea. Keep dreaming. The gov't and Lapid and Lipman want yeshiva bochrim out of the BM. They will never agree to your proposal which once again legalizes Torah learning as an exemption from the army/national service. Josefnoreply@blogger.com